Avatar for otisaga

‘Mokum Rus internet dairesinin oyunu olabilir mi?’ Konusu konuşuldu mu?

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evet, ben de arkasinda Rus gizli servisi olmayan Rus Internet yatirimi olamaz dedim.

 ‎· guru 7
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Samimi olarak mı dedin, ironik mi diyorsun şimdi?

 ‎· otisaga
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cogumuz sibirya'da bilinmeyen bir adreste, eski bir askeri tesisteki hangarin birinde, bilgisayar basinda egitim aldik.

 ‎· körkamil 2
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@hacivezirogullari: birilerinin faal olarak yönetmesi gerekiyor mu bu siteyi yav, eski bir sm databaseini kazanmak için seçenek sun, açık tut, kendi serverında tut yetmiyor mu?

 ‎· otisaga
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Ya da şöyle söyleyeyim, bu sitenin maliyeti ne kadardır? Hangi gelirle karşılanıyor? Soruları tartışıldı mı?

 ‎· otisaga
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yılda bir para topluyorlar paypal aracılığıyla server ücreti altyapı falan için. feedler vardı donation için.

 ‎· ubernova
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@otisaga: yok yok samimi olarak diyorum... bi Yandex ziyaretim var Moskova'da, daha once killaniyordum da orada emin oldum.

 ‎· guru 5
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@ubernova: bagisla cok olacak sey degil be ubercim... bi de ben bagis yapmak istedim "yok gerekmez" dedilerdi.

 ‎· guru 1
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Hah paranoya vb olmak zorunda değil yani, değilse ve bu konu hiç konuşulmamışsa biraz tuhafıma gidecek

 ‎· otisaga
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@guru: yeterli para toplandı bir sonrakinde verebilirsiniz dememişler miydi sana? ciddi ciddi mi kıllanıyorsunuz? feedi şakalı diye beğenmiştim sjskdk

 ‎· ubernova 1
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@otisaga: yonetmiyoruz zaten, yonlendirme ve asset bulma icin kullaniyoruz. (pardon "mu" demissin, yeni farkettim.)

 ‎· körkamil 1
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@hacivezirogullari: abi bizli falan konuştuğun için soruyorum, sitenin resmi liaison’u musun burada, o yetkiyle mi birinci çoğul biz yoksa, yanlış mı anlıyorum

 ‎· otisaga
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@ubernova: ya şu açıdan kıllanıyorum, rusyada bir tek adam iktidarı var, internet vb gibi konularda da istihbaratçı lociğiyle düşünüyor (bir tür silahlaştırılabilir asset/medium olarak gördüğünü anlıyorum) rus sitesinin bu etkiden bağımsız var olması mümkün elbette (bkz: ekşisözlük rte ilişkisi) de öyle olup olmadığını ben nasıl biliyorum?

 ‎· otisaga 1
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Tam olarak otis gibi dusunuyorum. Rusya'daki politik ortamda olmamasi icin sebep yok. O Rusya ki baska ulkelerdeki Internet sirketlerinin serverlarini fiziksel olarak Rusya icinde tutulmasini sart kosuyor. Guvenmek icin en ufak sebep yok?

 ‎· guru 2
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yani bana bir tuhaf geldi batmış bir sitenin kullanıcısını çekmek için girişimde bulunan ve bir geliri yokmuş gibi görünen sitenin rus sitesi olması. istihbarat işiyse bu maliyet vız gelir tırıs gider, geriye dönük kullanılabilecek datayı alır, siyaseten forse edebileceği her alanda istediği gibi kullanır

 ‎· otisaga
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Ben masaya yatırmıştım: https://mokum.place/rapri/1756287

 ‎· rapri
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guru'nun yargısını bilmiyorum da, bu site https://freefeed.net diye bir projeden türetilmiş bir site. (Fetfrip de başka bir projenin modifiyeli haliydi.) Bu hale getirmek için birkaç kişinin uzun olmayan bir sure calismasi yeterli. Sonrasinda ayakta tutmak icin asiri buyuk emek ve para gerekmiyor. Parayi yillik olarak bagis seklinde topluyorlar, bu yil 100$ gonderdim ben mesela.

 ‎· günlerin getirdiği 5
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Yani dedigim gibi, gözüyle gördüğü yargıya yoktur diyemem, öte yandan okkam'ın usturasına bakarsam, benim 2 kuruşum bu projenin birkaç rus developer tarafından gönüllü olarak kurulup çalıştırılabileceği yönünde. En azından fetfrip öyleydi, bir gece oturup ulan ya FF kapanırsa diye bakınıp bir şeyler yapmıştım, Türk istihbaratının adamı değil(d)im.

 ‎· günlerin getirdiği 4
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Vk ve telegram için adamlar şirketi neden adaya taşıdılar sanıyorsunuz? Zamanında onlardan da bir takım kullanıcı verileri isteniyordu.

 ‎· TARIK
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Hedef kitlesi biz ve bizim su muhtesem goygoylarimiz olmasaydi pekela inanilabilecek bir teori ama 40 bizim icin ugrasmaya degmez.

 ‎· serdar,ben 3
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Sitenin kurucusu Rus değil diye biliyorum. Ukraynalı sanırım. Hatta Avrupa’da yaşıyor (sanırım?)

 ‎· Yerdeniz Blüzcüsü
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@samet: bu dediğin kolay idame ettirilebilirlik etkisi sebebiyle bile ödenek ayrılıp takip edilebilecek bir işe dönüşüyor. yani maliyeti yok, faydası olabilir tarzda. aşırı lazer precision işler beklemek gerektiğini sanmıyorum bu data combing işlerinde

 ‎· otisaga
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@samet: yani zaten sorum bağımsızlık meselesini nasıl öğreniyoruz kısmı benim daha çok, bir hipotezim olması ve onun doğru olduğunu düşünmem değil. occam usturası bu örneğe uyarlanamıyor gibi geldi (hangi açıklamanın daha basit olduğunu kestirmek zor, aktörlerden bir tanesi Putin Rusyası, diğeri serbest girişimci, ikisi de eşit derecede var olabilir)

 ‎· otisaga
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@anytim3: bu da diğer mesele, yani rus istihbaratına bağlı işlemese DE, istihbaratın denetimi altındaysa sonuç değişmiyor

 ‎· otisaga
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@serdarben: hedef kitlesi mevcut olmak zorunda değil yav, geleceğe yatırımlardan bir tanesi olarak kenarda tutulması imkansız görünmüyor yatırım maliyeti ve istihdam edilmesi gereken işgücü açısından (bunun dışında doğrudan yatırım değil dolaylı denetim altında olma durumu da söz konusu)

 ‎· otisaga
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@yerdeniz: o ikametgah/uyruk çok belirleyici olmaz da yine de aklıma gelmişken sorayım: sitenin serverları nerede biliyor musun?

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: bilmiyorum maalesef. çağırıp soralım istersen. : )

 ‎· Yerdeniz Blüzcüsü
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@yerdeniz: gelir mi ki? çağıralım, ekabire izah etsin

 ‎· otisaga
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abi biz de putinden çok şikayetçiyiz, fak yu putin falan demezse inanmam

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: tşukiyeaşiu diyesi varsa da demez şu kadar geyiğin üstüne. etiketlersek gelir muhtemelen. direkt support grubuna da yazabilirsin gerçi. oraya sürekli bakıyor. https://mokum.place/support

 ‎· Yerdeniz Blüzcüsü
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ne diyeyim, rus ajanı mısınız diyeyim bilemedim. why should we trust you? diye gireyim

 ‎· otisaga 1
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hemen öyle yüzüne ajan mısın deme ayıp olur bize yakışmaz.

 ‎· serdar,ben 1
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@squadette we have some questions. : )

 ‎· Yerdeniz Blüzcüsü
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Thanks @yerdeniz. Hello, fellow citizens. I'll just answer the serious parts of that entertaining discussion. I guess I'm missing a lot because of Google Translate.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 10
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a) Server hosting is paid for by yearly fundraising. The last one was in August: https://mokum.place/about/donate. If the exchange rate of Bitcoin stays roughly the same as now we have enough money for two years, possibly longer.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 12
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b) servers are located in Hetzner, somewhere in Germany.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 11
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c) Mokum was created about a month after Friendfeed was shut down (May 2015). Turkish-speaking diaspora discovered Mokum in December 2015, and became the third language cluster after Russian-speaking and Italians. Then there was English-speaking cluster and Farsi-speaking.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 13
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d) Mokum is completely independent product, having nothing to do technically with https://freefeed.net/. Different code base, different feature set, different team, different speed and performance, different product roadmap, different development velocity. However, in terms of user ties, we are "twin villages", same as Italians with https://frenf.it/.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 13
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e) I would also like to say a few words about Mokum's potential ties with Russian intelligence. The truth of the matter is that fuck sorry, I need to go answer the door, somebody is ringing... be back in few mins.

 ‎· the-truth 16
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If you have any other questions I'd be happy to answer, here or privately, or in @support. You can send me direct message with dm:me.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 4
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nice trick: dm:me

 ‎· Emir 5
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Takip etmesem de uzaktan sempati duyduğum bir şahıs olduğu için iğnelemeden ve içtenlikle şunu desem: Sevgili @otisaga acaba Trump’a muhaliflik edeceğim derken demokrat parti’nin ”rusya amerika’yı içten fethetti” propagandasından fazlaca etkilenmiş olabilir mi?

 ‎· Cihangir Sağcısı 4
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@5posta: loaded question, başka türlü sor derim.

 ‎· otisaga
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@squadette: "Server hosting is paid for by yearly fundraising." do your donors have any way of checking or auditing your books?

 ‎· otisaga
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@squadette: "b) servers are located in Hetzner, somewhere in Germany." who owns the company and where did you register it? what type of company is it? non-profit, profit? can we get to look at your business registry?

 ‎· otisaga
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"c) Mokum was created about a month after Friendfeed was shut down (May 2015). Turkish-speaking diaspora discovered Mokum in December 2015, and became the third language cluster after Russian-speaking and Italians. Then there was English-speaking cluster and Farsi-speaking." who were the first users? how did they know each other? can we get to look at their resumes and so on?

 ‎· otisaga 1
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aside from these questions the initial question was this, since we know Russia is a one-man-party state (like Turkey, the franchise of the same model) there's a trust issue. As a developer/liaison, how do you reassure your users that you are not related to the Russian government, and/or, your (our) database (private info etc) is not within its judicial reach?

 ‎· otisaga 2
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and would you say 'Fuck Putin's mother and sister' every once in a while to reassure hardcore skeptics?

 ‎· otisaga 3
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@otisaga pardon the rudeness, but who are you, exactly, to ask for our "resumes and so on"? paranoia can cut both ways.

 ‎· TODO: feathers 19
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JFYI @squadette is Russian but he is not living in Russia any more and AFAIR has no intentions to return. Mokum was not created in Russia by any means.

 ‎· Offence think tank 3
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@earwin: who do I have to be, exactly, to ask questions around here?

 ‎· otisaga 1
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@anesthesia: would you say squadette left Russia because of the political climate? that would be a little reassuring

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga nobody. anybody. all I did, is asked you a question back.

 ‎· TODO: feathers 1
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@earwin: okay, since I do not have to be anybody in particular, I guess I can skip that question

 ‎· otisaga
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@earwin: topicstarter not new here (more than 10 months), may be he just a little trollit.

 ‎· flower petals in pyramids 2
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there are some Russian mokumers around who are obviously ex-KGB or now-KGB, saying when they need a really private or independent social account from Russia they go for mokum because @squadette's dossier makes clear he is a honest and nice guy

 ‎· Calculation of ж and ч 8
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@deodan: maybe I am, as long as I am asking relevant by users type of questions somebody might feel like answering it. somebody who is supposed to be answering these questions would do, are you one such person?

 ‎· otisaga
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@deodan "more than 10 months" I thought we agreed last time not to peek into user database without _serious_ reasons?

 ‎· TODO: feathers 1
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I suspect 'resume' just means 'naked photos' here.

 ‎· сраная йенни 9
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@mff: just checking if I got you right: mokum is known as a safe haven in Russian internet circles? can you link any links or articles to support that claim?

 ‎· otisaga
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@mastul: no, it means the credentials, work history of the people who helped build this site from ground up

 ‎· otisaga
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^^^^^^^^^^ guess that's a question for @Squadette himself if he would like to answer, I have no right to speak on his behalf about this. But as for your concerns about the ties between Mokum and russian goverment/KGB there are none. But since the sign-up is free for everyone noone could guarantee that there are no secret service guys here, Anyone could sign up for Mokum. But AFAIR that didn't bother Turkish commynity that much in case of Flickr several years ago when it became a stronghold for turkish anti-gotherment movements.

 ‎· Offence think tank
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@otisaga: I wonder why one might be interested in answering your questions for the reason other than laughing

 ‎· weekend 4
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I am the guy from KGB, AMA.

 ‎· how about yes 6
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@anesthesia: I am also interested in user feedback from the Russian side about the people who are involved in its making. for example, do you know them personally?

 ‎· otisaga
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@weekend: some people are get paid to do that, they are called community liaisons, they might laugh but they still have to answer user questions and concerns. you might laugh without answering

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: some people in Mokum you mean? Get paid to answer you? That's quite a joke thank you!

 ‎· weekend 12
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@anesthesia: I'm not sure if you went though the trouble of translating (I wouldn't blame you if you didn't) but there was a mention of how some russian sites had to take their servers out of russia, or, re register elsewhere to break free from government interference, is that true?

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: No, only via internet, but AFAIR half of them are not living in Russia (and one of them even doesn't have russian citizenship). As for the 'safe haven' Mokum is too small and private place to actually gain any reputation behing the pretty close circle of its subscribers.

 ‎· Offence think tank 1
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@weekend: yes, let me repeat the part about how those people operate: some people are get paid to do that, they are called community liaisons,

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: ahahahaha, please continue

 ‎· weekend 1
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@anesthesia: so would you say it is virtually unknown in Russia?

 ‎· otisaga
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@weekend: that was my intention, thank you : )

 ‎· otisaga
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@anesthesia: how many subscribers do you think it has? if you know a link to a page that holds those stats that would also do, thanks in advance

 ‎· otisaga 1
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@otisaga: please check the https://mokum.place/about page.

 ‎· how about yes 2
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@corvalol: thank you

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: yes, i would say that. The amount of people in Russia who actually know about Mokum is really small. My guess is about 1000 people or so (counting the existing russian mokum users). As for the money: AFAIR noone of the mokum creators ever get any money, this is totally pro bono project, driven by the enthusiasm of the creators (Squadette and others). All the money collected via donations are used to pay for hosting etc, not to pay some kind of salary for the mokum techs. As for the stats, here is the only stats available for users https://mokum.place/about/stats

 ‎· Offence think tank 5
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ooo, may be @otisaga from MIT (Millî İstihbarat Teşkilatı, turkish FSB) and he want to know ALL OUR SECRETS? Nice try

 ‎· flower petals in pyramids 6
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^ Exactly what I meant, while asking my question. Our turkish colleagues aren't very subtle.

 ‎· TODO: feathers 5
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@anesthesia: this looks like a really tiny website, I thought it was small but I didn't know it was this small. there's still a chance that the owners might be forced (or complicit) to turn their data in, but that seems like a possibility like any other

 ‎· otisaga
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@deodan: ahahahaha that was hilarious! Bu da oldu—> otis mit ajanlığı şüphelisi oldu. Ahahaha Ölene kadar bu sitedeyim. Dhfhdhfkdk

 ‎· Yerdeniz Blüzcüsü 2
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@otisaga: it could happen to any website and any service at all, you know. Since Mokum is not that known and its owner is out of reach of russian security services chances are small.

 ‎· Offence think tank
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@deodan: there's a saying in Turkey, if a secret service agent gets all sarcastic upon interrogation he's a novice, if he gets sarcastic when pressed upon but remains calm throughout he is competent, but if he disappears without answering any question, he is a bordo bereli mit mensubu, don't worry, like an authoritarian regime he will find you when you least expect it and get you.

 ‎· otisaga 1
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İşte şimdi #mükemmelbirfiğd oldu bu.

 ‎· Yerdeniz Blüzcüsü 1
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@earwin: MIT members are zart zurt not because they don't know how to be subtle, they are zart zurt because no one expects a secret service agent to be that way, they double bluff their way through

 ‎· otisaga
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@anesthesia: yeah, that's what I meant by being a possibility like any other, doesn't sound too probable....YET

 ‎· otisaga
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@yerdeniz: bu kadar alaka beklemiyordum, şaşırdım

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: ben şaşırmadım. Daha azı olsa şaşırırdım. Bugüne kadar çizdikleri profilin bendeki karşılığı tam olarak bu. Bir de kitap meselesi var. Bir ara feedin linkini bulup atayım sana. Hayatımda gördüğüm en ince hareketlerden biriydi.

 ‎· Yerdeniz Blüzcüsü 1
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@squadette: according to the graphs the site looks like its going bottom up, do you have any plans to incentivize user engagement and stuff or are you more like, 'it will be cool while it lasts'?

 ‎· otisaga 1
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@yerdeniz: kitap meselesi ne ola ki?

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: "who were the first users? how did they know each other? can we get to look at their resumes and so on?" nice try, Officer Comrade.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 15
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@otisaga: ^^^ @squadette recently announced that mokum will introduce Stories in 18Q2

 ‎· Calculation of ж and ч 2
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@squadette : is that confidential info? if so, by choice or by necessity?

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: "... there's a trust issue. As a developer/liaison, how do you reassure your users..." First of all, I'd like to thank you that you at least do not ask me if I'm a Jew. It is a substantial improvement since the last time somebody asked such questions.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 22
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@mff: what's 18q2?

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: it's a book by Haruki Murakami. I suggest you audit that book.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 8
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@squadette: thank you for the anecdote, you're welcome. So that being said, you do know that there's a trust issue with Russia these days, right? Not because Russians are essentially this way or that way (which would be congruent with the 'are you a jew?' question you brought up), but because Russian government seems to behave a certain way (which would go along nicely with my: how do you reassure your users protection from russian state/government interference?)

 ‎· otisaga
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@squadette: you mean 1Q84?

 ‎· otisaga
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@squadette: I hope I am not transgressing any boundaries by asking about the privacy of my information, I thought it was pertinent to the given situation in Russia (and a lot of other places). I do not get inquisitive to hurt some national, or vocational pride, I'm asking on behalf of my own interest as a user, as a velinimet, so to speak. if I do, apologies and I hope you recover soon

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: "I hope I am not transgressing any boundaries" by the way, what is your own assessment? do you think you're transgressing boundaries because the situtation is so dire that urgent clarification is needed, or do you think you're not transgressing any boundaries by asking resumes of First Users?

 ‎· псы в рапиде
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@weekend: "Get paid to answer you?" I believe @otisaga's concern is more of if there are people who are paid to ask.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 2
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@squadette: both, and hopefully, neither. I might be considered transgressing boundaries by, what seems like a community liaison (this would be you), someone who is in charge to respond to any issue about the rights and concerns of any user (this would be me) without assuming he or she might get personally and emotionally involved with the situation (after all, what would that assumption say about the person in charge? or the company he works for?) so I didn't assume the worst, I assumed the usual-by-other-such-enterprises and asked a few questions which I think are valid. it included the ids of the first users who are, if experience and memory serves me right, almost always the same people who work for the site, directly or indirectly. indirect ones you can rule out, would you be able to provide a list of people who are officially involved (anyone on the payroll if you have any) so that we can do a background check by and within our own means? if, for whatever reason, this is out of the question, why is that so? I am not saying there cannot be a valid reason to deny a question, there might be a many good ones. Questioning a question, however, is questionable, considering the nature of the relationship and the subject matter of the inquiry

 ‎· otisaga
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@squadette: could you extend the quote a little more so that its context can be seen from the sides?

 ‎· otisaga
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@squadette: my concern is primarily the safety of the data the site keeps (legal obligations and limits), how complicit it is (KGB and stuff), I don't think anyone can reassure anybody in any meaningful way. So, to clear, I am not saying I suspect there is a pro-active surveillance or anything, I am asking first and foremost this: can our data be reached retroactively by the Russian State, if they demand it

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: why would you believe anything these kgb fellas have to say? Trust no one!

 ‎· sober, steady, good provider 4
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@otisaga: I'm still thinking about how to reply. What your persona is doing, in my opinion, is called "security theatre": asking Hard Questions, citing The World Situation In 2017 (capital "2", mind you). Are you at least using TOR?

 ‎· псы в рапиде 9
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@markizko: redundant sarcasm noted :)

 ‎· otisaga
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@squadette: You might start replying with picking one of the questions I have asked as opposed to what my motivations might be or, how my character appears to you

 ‎· otisaga 1
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@squadette: if I answer your question will you answer or acknowledge any one of the questions I have asked so far? Even though I shouldn't have to, I promise I will bother with presenting my reasons for asking them in detail.

 ‎· otisaga
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Sweet Jesus, Pooh! That's not trolling!

 ‎· weekend 9
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@weekend: and whose assumption was that?

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: Tigger's obviously

 ‎· weekend
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@weekend: T word is spoken

 ‎· otisaga 3
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@otisaga: ok, hands down, this one is actually good

 ‎· weekend 1
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@weekend: thank you. even though I might have started on the wrong foot with you (I wonder why), I assure you, my intentions are even better

 ‎· otisaga
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@squadette: if you could use some help from an aspie known for relentless explaining and giving straight serious anxwers for strange questions while ignoring subtle nuances and possibilities of the questions being sarcasm or torlling, feel free to summon me

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 4
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@random: can I summon you on his behalf? or you can only be summoned through proper channels?

 ‎· otisaga
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@random: I mean, I'll summon you if you know the answers to my questions, if you don't, you may still answer the ones that you can

 ‎· otisaga
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@random: ^^, I just wanted to say that who really needs to summon aspie support counsel is @otisaga's thread-persona.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 1
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@squadette: what's an aspie?

 ‎· otisaga
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@squadette: that's not a question about the mokum as legal entity (whether it is for profit or non profit), it should be safe to answer without analyzing the questioners intent and character

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: I prefer not to speak on anybody's behalf while they are able to answer for themselves, so it's @squadette 's prerogative only

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 1
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@random: I see, well, he is (it is a he right?) a bit under-performing in the answering factual questions part. If he minds you stepping in, it will be totally on him. I wouldn't worry personally.

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: given the context, aspie is short for aspergers I suppose.

 ‎· nasti 2
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@nastybum: that would be name calling : 3, answering factual questions : 0

 ‎· otisaga
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@otisaga: he is calling himself an aspie, so that's legit I think.

 ‎· nasti
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it is getting weirdly fishy. it all started with a question, what if these guys don't have much of an option but to turn our data in if and when Russia demands them? The issue got a pretty fast reaction from the official looking types, yet despite the promise of answering more questions, none that truly have any bearing were answered as of now. name calling, sarcasm pushing started to get more and more traction.

 ‎· otisaga 1
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@nastybum: "who really needs to summon aspie support counsel is @otisaga's thread-persona." that seems to implicate me (or my thread persona, whatever that may mean) as the aspie

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

I mean the sarcasm might have a point, it might be funny ha ha when you look at it from a certain light, but how do they ALL assume we can see it the way they see it and be in on the joke?

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

Let's say the first user/developers resumes thing was a bit over the line (for whatever reason I cannot quite grasp, knowing how these companies traditionally love to rub the faces and voices of their close knit organic community in without anyone really asking) how about this basic question: what is the legal status of the company? is there none? if there is a company is it for profit, non profit? how is that an aspie/trollish thing to ask?

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

ok, I have @squadette's permission. ready to clarify everything for you. give me five minutes.

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 1
Comment

@random: thanks, I'll be waiting

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

1. There is no company. No legal entity as far as I know. Mokum is @squadette's personal pet project. So, no "company liasons", no obligations to users, and a funny reaction for your first pool of questions from all his friends. There is just himself who is developing the code, and a couple of users who help him supporting and maintaining servers - each of them is mentioned by him for credits while he announces every next feature at @mokum.

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 7
Comment

2. @squadette personally is a well-known person in the Russian IT-community. Many of us know him as a web developer from 90ies, some of us worked with him in past in some companies, he's got a strong reputation and many keep a reallife friendship with him after his and theirs emigration to various countries.

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 11
Comment

@random: "Mokum is @squadette's personal pet project." that explains the attitude, and based on my own embarrassing experience from my personal past, his friends' reactions. thank you very much. this fact would cancel out most other things I have asked.

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

3. About 60% of the Russian current community in Mokum are the community from Friendfeed, so they (we) were watching the project from the very beginning - how it was concieved and developed after the Tragical Stop Of Friendfeed, so all of they (us) are the First Users you asked for - we just were invited to help testing the new project from the very beginning.

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 2
Comment

@random: would you consider him to be a part of the vocal opposition in Russia (if he is from Russia). This seems to be the general rule for old timers in Turkey (meaning they are generally part of the vocal opposition in Turkey)

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: sorry for that misunderstanding. I kinda assumed that you've actually read the link that @corvalol posted in /otisaga/1787121#c6811170 (even though arguably the "Mokum Team" link is too far at the bottom of that page).

 ‎· псы в рапиде 1
Comment

@random: 3. alright, since there is no company (but a person with a pet project and informal associates) the seed community thing also becomes inconsequential, that would explain the shift. We, too, were looking around for alternatives, few Turkish sites came up but I couldn't trust them (not because I thought they were dubious characters but because I didn't know anything about them)

 ‎· otisaga 1
Comment

@squadette: no, I checked the statistics and made a comment about traffic size and the downward trend. I thought that was shared for the size metrics

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: statistics link was shared by @anesthesia in a different comment, /otisaga/1787121#c6811174

 ‎· псы в рапиде
Comment

@squadette: I must have ignored the broadest direction possible page link, or, didn't see it through the sarcasm cyclone

 ‎· otisaga 1
Comment

@squadette: is there a shorter way of extracting those comment links? I had to right click and copy the link address

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@random : you are still answering right?

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

Who would like having his resume asked for "background check"? We don't

 ‎· weekend 3
Comment

@weekend: people like their resumes associated with thriving companies, you might do your own background check with the resume, so long as it is okay to share it (it doesn't have to be an extensive resume, just who the person is past work experience, so on, not the address phone and personal hobbies bit)

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: On your question on "being an opposition". I don't want to speak about anybody personally in this context - keep in mind that I don't know who you are and you don't know who I am, so any words are senseless. But I can describe you the landscape in general. As we know that Mokum is more or less safe from the interest of any country state authorities we consider it a place of free speech - with some reasonable precautions as keeping friedns-only mode of "mokum users only" mode. People with very different views are present here, some of us attended anti-state meetings, some of us were arrested, some of us just talked on forums. All of this from different sides - some of us are libertanians, some lefties, some alt-righters, there is even a couple of moderate Putin supporters (sincere ones, not paid) - and we are enjoying this opportunity to discuss, argue, ask questions, and keep respecting each other, and keep comparing how the views are chaning depending on which country somebody has moved to and what experience gained. The only two rules are to be ready to jokes and to preserve intellectual level of discussion and be ready to support opinions with facts and references.

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 14
Comment

@random: "I don't want to speak about anybody personally in this context" If the owner of the pet project is a well known figure in IRL person, I assume his or her general political stance would be known through 3rd party records (for example I could tell you what Social Media owner is at what end of the political spectrum based on his / her interviews and so on). The fact that we are virtually unknown to each other doesn't make the question impossible to answer, I think.

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@random: "People with very different views are present here, some of us attended anti-state meetings, some of us were arrested, some of us just talked on forums. All of this from different sides - some of us are libertanians, some lefties, some alt-righters, there is even a couple of moderate Putin supporters (sincere ones, not paid)" this is more or less true for the Turkish community as well (including Putin supporters)

 ‎· otisaga 1
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@otisaga: I personally don't like when stranger wants to know about me more than my username and what I write willingly. I assume that it's not only me

 ‎· weekend 7
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@weekend: it's not only you. from what I learned so far, in the context that I asked (people who work for mokum as a legal entity), it couldn't have been you

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: he is definitely 100% not Putin supporter and definitely 100% is independent and not connected to any political force in any country, all the rest is irrelevant because his own views in no way have any influence to anything we discuss, he is just a technical host of discussions, not a chair and rarely a participant

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 1
Comment

@random: Is there a board to be chaired, or, did you just say it in passing?

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: concerning resumes. We want this place also to be convenient for discussing job atmosphere in our companies, complaining to each other about work, express opinions that could be regarded unproper by our employers, so no real names and no company names in the open mode - and this post is in the open mode availiable for search engines

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 5
Comment

@random: "100% is independent and not connected to any political force in any country" how do you know that btw? :)

 ‎· псы в рапиде 3
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@otisaga: ^^^ I mean when there is a discussion in some feed or group iit's not a committee discussion with a chair

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 1
Comment

@random: and I'm asking to verify, are you saying the server and data is safe from the legal jurisdiction of the Russian state? This is the most important bit, I think. can the owner be legally coerced into turning in the user data?

 ‎· otisaga 1
Comment

@squadette: for the purpose of this dialogue, my confidence that I know you personally strong enough to be sure that it's un-imaginable is enough

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 3
Comment

@otisaga: I'm deeply confused by your questions, really. Can you provide any example of a service whose owner can not be legally coerced into turning in the user data? I'd like to understand how much of reality we do share. Thanks,

 ‎· псы в рапиде 3
Comment

@squadette: sure, Mark Zuckerbeg cannot be legally coerced into turning in user data to Russian State, he may be coerced to turn them in to US. I am not saying turning in to *any* state, I thought I made the specific liability clear from the get go

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

so my question, to you directly, is this: does Russian state have any legal power over you? Can they strong arm you, legally, through your fixed or monetary assets in Russia, or, because you happen to live in it?

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: some guy who doesn't live in Russia develops a website, hosts is in Germany, never comes to Russia, but the website has some users living in Russia or using Russian. No financial transactions, no personal data hosting, unlike Facebook or Amazon. I don't believe that could be a base for them to demand moving servers to Russia - no more than for Reddit for example. And I cannot think of any way for them to enforce this except of taking his relatives as hostages - but the site is too small to be interesting for them to such an extent.

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 5
Comment

@otisaga: woah woah dude, that's getting a bit intense. Let's all just fucking chill down. "fixed or monetary assets in Russia", my ass. <https://i.imgur.com/kdE8vR5.jpg>.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 5
Comment

@random: alright, so this is where the turkish side's POV comes in. Mokum is known as a russian site. it is assumed to be owned by russians. that would explain why servers being elsewhere is not reassuring alone. taking relatives as hostages can be made legal, but for the purpose of this conversation can and should be ruled out

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: if your opsec depends on my fixed or monetary assets in Russia then tell you what, you're screwed.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 9
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@squadette: may be the terms might sound a bit too highfalutin, let me down to eartify it to you: 'If you have a house/real estate in Russia or money/funds in a russian bank, would they be able to freeze those and make you comply with them?' is the practical way of asking the same question

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@squadette: I am not sure I'd consider my security concerns as my OPSEC issues but that's something I can consider, right?

 ‎· otisaga
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@squadette: I mean this was the initial question, I'd say it didn't escalate quickly enough. Here's how I'd answer that question. If I had such considerable assets in Russia, I'd say, yes, there is a chance that they might force my hand through them. If I don't have any assets (or negligible ones) in Russia, I'd say, no, I don't have any material ties to that effect. Which one is it?

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: I think by that time you understand that Mokum was invented primarily for sharing cats pictures. As part of the implicit trust contract with users, we try to be fully compliant with best practices in making sure that your cat pictures are safe. I believe that part of the confusion in this thread is the differences in perceived scope of this website's functionality and purpose.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 14
Comment

@squadette: "I think by that time you understand that Mokum was invented primarily for sharing cats pictures." facebook was invented to get laid; things evolve, data accumulate. I see your point for this point in time, but I'm not only asking for this point in time, I'm asking the general conditions to asses general liability. In this case it looks like you are the sole liability, you might want to get used to more of these in future, if and when the site gets bigger.

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@squadette: I'm sure you are aware that people do not only share pussy photos of one kind here. (it's a trap question)

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: the real question is how many other people except for me are aware of that too.

 ‎· псы в рапиде
Comment

@squadette: in the context: as many as you can be forced to make aware

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: this coincidence is eerie: /squadette/1788705

 ‎· псы в рапиде 1
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@otisaga: such security concerns are much more serious for Russian users living in Russia - and still there is some amount ot such users, who percieved this and decided to join. Your question is definitely breaking the borders. We don't ask such personal questions to @squadette, but we believe he is reasonably responsible and able to see obvious implications of his deeds, and that we are safe to the level descibed as "as good as one can promise until an irresistible force comes which he could not predict or resist". That is the maximum you can ask of anybody.

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 4
Comment

@squadette: so in your database you carry a lot of gossip, a lot of worms and their cans mixed in with the cat photos, those remain, if they can be taken from you legally, we have to know it. we might take the risk and wing it with you, but we might also be given the chance to say, sorry too risky for my taste. that's why I'm asking the question. I'm not saying you are pussy footing around the question, but if you were, it wouldn't look too different from what we see now

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: let me be blunt here – you might have questions, sure - but in no way there is anyone who is obligated to answer them. Just as all of us, you're a guest here. Mokum is not a service you're in any way entitled to, your personal information here is the one you've decided to share, and you rely on the good will of the host here. That is true for any other service in the world, including Facebook.

 ‎· for hysterical raisins 8
Comment

@otisaga: no, seriously, this is a very strange conversation: you're either paranoid (which is perfectly fine), but then again, a paranoic would never trust answers of random people on the internet, or coming across as a very rude person trying to interrogate someone who doesn't owe you anything. Either way it's quite pointless.

 ‎· sober, steady, good provider 8
Comment

@random: I see, I wouldn't ask them if I didn't think they were pertinent to the case at hand. as it is, any legal tie, in Turkey can be used against the owner to force his hand to comply (this had been our experience), so let me try to be as reassuring as possible: it is not personal. it simply has to do with the fact that a person seems to the single point failure bottle neck for user security concerns

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: remind me - did anybody haunted you insisting you sign up? did anybody begged you to stay? it's your own move to come or to leave, you take the service "as is", same as everybody else here

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 2
Comment

@ayoshi: I hope I didn't give the impression that I carry the holy cross in my questioning. no one has to do anything, it is just a matter of reasonable doubt (which I think my doubts stand to reason, I can defend them within reason and our collective experience). I am a guest whose past locked in user data is recorded here, so the analogy of guest host doesn't apply.

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: what I'm trying to say is that your doubt is unreasonable in a sense that, as I already said, if your opsec depends on the answers you're trying to get then you're screwed already. If you suddenly became WOKE about that, I would suggest that you begin rethinking your approach to the Internet. I'm sorry.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 5
Comment

@markizko: I am not interrogating, I cannot interrogate without some force over him, so the term doesn't apply. I am asking question, based upon an ecouragement that was provided by him earlier in the post. As for paranoia, I think your clinical diagnosis is off. I lived in Turkey, a similar country to Russia from what I can see. I urge you to consider what I'm questionaing here. I am not questioning intentions, they can be masked, I'm questioning the material conditions (Russian State over individual rights). The owner doesnb't have to be complicit to turn in the data, he may be forced to do so. If this is the case, what is the contingency plan? Is there any?

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@random: I do not see how that question applies to what I'm asking. I'm not saying I'm not free to go, as a matter of fact right now I am am in the process of assessing it. But how can I do it without the due diligence? And how would I learn what I thought was pertinent without asking the questions I think are pertinent?

 ‎· otisaga
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^^^ I mean, you can continue trying to find out the underlying assets structure, this will surely entertain you until the inevitable end. Or I would suggest to return to our regularly scheduled cats posting.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 2
Comment

If the information is needed, fsb can knock @squadette's door in any country and threaten him, say at least, with physical harm. If he complies, then what? In what court could you keep him or Russia accountable? As far as I recall, we are not promised nor do promise anything in the form of user agreement. Insignificance of one's shared data here is the only thing s/he can trust I think.

 ‎· haypunkt 2
Comment

@squadette: I see, but I don't think you are backing up your claim. You are saying it is wrong, you are not saying why you think it is wrong. There's a chance that you might deny having any material ties now and set my mind at ease (however much you can). If it comes out the other way (we learn that you actually had some material ties as liabilities) we could at least know for sure that you have lied. If you don't, then it wouldn't come out, or come out convincingly.

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@squadette: I think you are evading the question still. If you have some material relationships of that sort, that wouldn't prove that you are or will be complicit. That's still a risk management decision for us (me) to make. This would be reason enough to answer that question openly. I am not asking how much money, assets you have in Russia, I am asking this: do you have any, and if so, is it considerable by you? I don't see how this questioning will go on to no end (for example the replies to previous questions were enough)

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@haypatpat: of course, but that's not what I am asking. That kind of armbending applies to everyone, even when you sign on to some agreement or whatnot, that doesn't make the legal side of a possible concern (which I am voicing) of lesser bearing.

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: I do evade the question, that is kind of obvious. I'm still confused that you don't accept that.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 11
Comment

^^^ again - that’s imho none of your business, as you are but a random person on the net, so you probably will have to live with that unknown, factoring it as unknown into your risk management strategy.

 ‎· for hysterical raisins 9
Comment

@squadette: acknowledging it makes it less obvious. the reason for your evasion can be read with multiple ways, that might be comforting to some end.

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@ayoshi: again, imnsho, I have already explained how that is my and anyone else's business. I am not voicing a condition that applies to me, I am not asking how he will behave when I do this or that, I am asking how he might behave if and when the state kicks in (they tend to kick in often enough). we could be talking about contingencies at this stage, but we are talking about me for considering and questioning a material possibility, about everyone else's data, who couldn't be written off just because they didn't agree to some contract or other.

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

^ this one too will remain unknown - it’s still not anyone’s business, because you’re not entitled to even a descision on whose business it is, only to an opinion. This type of contract is called what you see is what you get.

 ‎· for hysterical raisins 3
Comment

@otisaga: well, after you want his private information on his bank account, property or relatives, you can be expected to ask on bank account numbers and bank passwords after this! I would evade too. And the reason why the questions are pointless is explained to you several times by multiple approaches from several people, and you are still insisting? Ok, please tell me, what your risk management policy says about 3rd world war, falling Moon onto Earth, earthquakes and the World Cup.

 ‎· профессиональные калеки 2
Comment

@otisaga what you're doing, is you're approaching a random person on the street, and asking — is it safe staying near you? is it really safe staying near you? are you absolutely sure? can your overseas assets can be leveraged by a third party affecting my safety near you? / 1. this is rude. polite person will evade your questions, more direct one will hit you, some will run from you calling for the police. 2. whatever the person answers, it has no correlation with reality. a thug will lie that he's good, a pastor will lie that he's thug just to get you off his case, or they will tell the truth, you never know.

 ‎· TODO: feathers 12
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a combination of rude and absolutely, completely, hopelessly pointless — is why everyone's finding it so hard not to troll

 ‎· TODO: feathers 9
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@squadette: look at it this way, if, for whatever reason, you have never considered this possibility, here is a chance for considering it and coming up with a contingency plan. if, however, you have already considered it, the way you are responding is either part of your contingency plan, or, you couldn't come up with a working model. either way, users have a right and need to know how their data is handled, and by whom.

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@random: "after you want his private information on his bank account" what I have asked in no way encompasses those answers. my question is a subjective yes no question. The subjective answer is expected from the person in charge. it cannot be extended to these details, I don't think it's a fair assessment of the inquiry

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@otisaga: that's actually a fair question. Let me think.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 2
Comment

@random: " And the reason why the questions are pointless is explained to you several times by multiple approaches from several people, and you are still insisting?" this is the part we disagree, I didn't hear a case that explains why this is pointless. I was told it is pointless and make some sense out of it. If you remember an exact phrasing please share it, so that I can reevaluate it

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@random: "Ok, please tell me, what your risk management policy says about 3rd world war, falling Moon onto Earth, earthquakes and the World Cup." I think these examples are also off, as they do not have a specific person who is accountable (we have him right here), would concern only me (our case includes each and every user in this site, including you), earthquakes cannot be predicted, world cup is passe.

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@earwin: "what you're doing, is you're approaching a random person on the street," I don't think this is a fair evaluation. I am not approaching a random person on some street, I am approaching the owner of the street where I was recorded doing things public and private. I am not shaking finger at him, I am trying to evaluate how my actions are recorded and how safe can they be kept.

 ‎· otisaga 1
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@otisaga: look at /otisaga/1787121#c6811468 for example

 ‎· профессиональные калеки
Comment

@earwin: "is it safe staying near you?" this part is also, off, it should have been 'was it ever safe to such and such extent to be here, under your accountability' I didn't ask for absolutes; I asked effective treatments within possibilities. the possibility included a known state practice (taking assets as hostage) I don't think it is rude, because of the nature of the way we are related (both as netizens and user-owner/admin end). I don't think moralizing the issue into a rude corner helps the present concerns. 2. I wasn't expecting honesty, I was expecting some answer, to be on the record concerning this case.

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@earwin: I'm sorry if you see it as rude, it wasn't my intention. I cannot prove that I was or wasn't trying to be rude, can I?

 ‎· otisaga
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@squadette: thank you. one more time, I wasn't trying to be difficult, I just had some questions and concerns. They may be off, or on the spot. We cannot know without talking them through.

 ‎· otisaga 1
Comment

@otisaga: I would like to point out that "where I was recorded doing things public and private" is not an accurate metaphor of what happened. Also, as was said before, the servers are located in Germany, and I guess that it should answer 95% of your concerns. I still find the question about personal assets structure and potential for third-party government coercion disturbing and practically un-answerable.

 ‎· псы в рапиде 1
Comment

@otisaga nope. this is a random person. you approach him and tell him — I want to be friends with you. I want to trust you. I want to tell you how I've spent the day, show a picture of my cat, and maybe share a dirty secret or two (but only if nobody else hears). *realisation dawns* But can I trust you? Can I really? Who are you? Where did you come from? I'd like a few references, and contacts of your friends. Prove to me that you're trustworthy, so I can consider you a friend! / "I wasn't expecting honesty" but, unfortunately, that's what youre getting : )

 ‎· TODO: feathers 5
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@random: the about page link was proving my concerns were pointless?

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

Guys relax, otisaga was a NATO officer at the İncirlik ait base. That's why he is a bit paranoid

 ‎· nmcy 5
Comment

@squadette: I am not saying servers being in Germany is of no bearing or value. Of course, it does provide some leverage. Yet, in my contingency horizon, it doesn't cover a known possibility. That kind of state coercion is done in Turkey, I don't see how it cannot be done in Russia

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@earwin: I think the 'nope' wasn't much of retort. What you are providing is another metaphor. But let it be that way, that a person is woke after the fact and the deed. So there is some locked in personal info. Let's call them goners. What about the stuff he realized he couldn't trust with them? Does that mean he cannot reduce the harm for himself or the others from that point on?

 ‎· otisaga 1
Comment

@earwin: I wasn't expecting honesty, meaning, I couldn't possibly expect to know that people were going to be honest with me. That's a given, it comes with the 'people territory'. I wasn't hoping to make friends or enemies, I was expecting to voice my concerns, ask some questions and expect the result (whatever it may be) to have an effect on my (and everyone else's) evaluation. Didn't I get what I want in the end?

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@nmcy: nmcy knows me from my own birlik. he is the good cop to my aspie cop.

 ‎· otisaga 3
Comment

@otisaga: ahem. Good morning. Community liaison here. When did you first realize something is wrong with you?

 ‎· Vlad Kaznacheev 15
Comment

@otisaga: does my link clicks to the about page? on my Chrome it links to the @markizko's comment with "a paranoic would never trust answers of random people on the internet' explanation

 ‎· профессиональные калеки
Comment

@random: hmm, I might be looking at the wrong one. Though I think I have answered that explanation. let me check

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@kaznacheev: when I filed it under redundant sarcasm

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@random: yep, I did. https://mokum.place/otisaga/1787121#c6811482 he/she seems to call me paranoid, or, rude (false dichotomy; not explaining why my concerns are off; voicing personal judgments about how I appear to him/her)

 ‎· otisaga 1
Comment

@otisaga: but you missed his point: he tried to show why your interrogation was pointless.

 ‎· профессиональные калеки
Comment

@random: I think you should also consider the possibility that you might have missed my rebuttal about why it wasn't an interrogation (it couldn't be), and why his opinion about what the point is, doesn't apply to mine. but let me elaborate further. I am not saying he owes me anything, we don't have a legal case against anyone, I am asking questions that he might choose to answer or evade, the point is not getting the right answer, it is getting any answer provided that the corncerns are valid. if the concerns cannot be proven to be baseless, not having a point becomes a moot point

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

i resign.

 ‎· профессиональные калеки
Comment

@random: and I need to sleep. thank you, once again for your explanations and your patience

 ‎· otisaga 1
Comment

just leave the internetler @otisaga, pull the plug. that 's the answer of all your questions.

 ‎· nomnomski 7
Comment

#epic

 ‎· 9000 1
Comment

#unepic

 ‎· Чарльз Буковки 1
Comment

@otisaga: actually, in all seriousness, do you have an account on Freefeed? I'd like to encourage you to go there and ask these questions, you might be pleasantly surprised (no, really)

 ‎· Vlad Kaznacheev 19
Comment

Now this is what I call creative recruitment

 ‎· s_hitposting 8
Comment

@kaznacheev: I don't, what's the surprise, go ahead spoil it.

 ‎· otisaga
Comment

@nomnomski: I leave the internetler, but internetler doesn't leave me. like the Ahmed Arif's sevda which doesn't quit.

 ‎· otisaga

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